Interview with @NancyDrewPI

Nancy had enough of the lack of humanistic values found throughout the Catholic church and when she discovered alternate worldviews other than what she had been taught as a child, she found that explaining away the suffering and corruption made more sense if there were no omnibenevolent, omnipotent, deity looking over us, and she admitted to herself that she no longer believes in God.  But she can't admit it to her everybody.  Find out why...

@GodsNotReal_ : How were you brought up in religion?  What did your parents/pastor teach you and what about it did you like the most while growing up?

Nancy: If it's okay, I'd like you to post an excerpt from my "deconversion" story since I've already written this up. "I was raised in a loving Catholic family, I went to Catholic school from grades K-12, and attended a Catholic university as well. Even within the Catholic community, we were kind of seen as religious freaks because we went to church every Sunday (most were only Catholic in name and wanted private education), read the Bible and prayed the rosary every day, and were "Charismatic" Catholics. My mom would try to distinguish herself from the "charismaniacs" of the 70's, but we attended prayer meetings every Friday night where people spoke in tongues and were "slain in the Spirit". It wasn't as bad as what you see on TV, but it was close. My favorite part was that we sung songs with guitars and drums, not like those boring hymns in church. I loved it! I felt close to God and Jesus, I had a sense of community, and we got to sing and dance and socialize.

Religion was always one of my favorite classes in school. It was easy; I knew all the stories. I loved arguing with my less religious classmates and even teachers. I could quote the Bible and I knew a lot of the answers to the arguments against Catholicism or God/Jesus. I was an altar server, a CCD teacher, a youth leader, and in a traveling church play every year. I wanted to study religion and apologetics, be a "defender of the faith". Pretty much everyone I knew thought I would be a nun." The rest can be found here: http://www.theplaydoughpoem.com/deconversion-stories/

@GodsNotReal_ : What was it like as you began to lose faith and what were the events that caused it?

Nancy: (again this is mostly copied from Sandra's site) The earliest recollection I have of questioning my faith maybe around age 14. I remember asking my friends and my mom, "If Jesus says to give away everything you have and give your money to the poor, why do churches have all these big statues and gold chalices and such?" If a church melted down all their gold, they could feed a LOT of starving kids. The earliest disciples met in houses. What did we even need churches for? From being an altar server and my religion classes, I knew that the "Host" (communion wafer) had to be kept in a chalice or other container made of precious metal. HAD to be. This made no sense to me -- the guy was born in a stable, washed his disciples' feet... why would he demand to be kept in a gold chalice? My mom tried to impress upon me how Catholics follow both Scripture and Tradition (man-made laws) but I didn't really buy it. That was strike one.

Strike two came in high school during religion class. My freshman year, we were taught the origin of the Gospels and I found out that the Gospel writers were most likely NOT eyewitnesses. I always believed that they were apostles and were there with Jesus. They weren't written until decades after Jesus. I have said for a while now that if I went to public school instead of Catholic school where religion classes were required, I might not be an atheist. The more I actually learned about my religion, the less it made sense.

Towards the end of high school, one of my best friends came out as gay. At first I maintained my stance that you could be gay as long as you don't act on it -- homosexual acts, though, were sinful. As time went on, it became harder and harder to maintain that belief. How could I tell this awesome, friendly, happy person that he wasn't allowed to love who he wanted to love? Whom he couldn't HELP loving? It just did not seem fair. Strike three.

I don't mean I became an atheist right away. I began by rejecting the doctrines of the Catholic Church -- their stances on homosexuality, divorce (really? if a man beats his wife she has to stay with him?) and a few others. I asked a lot of questions in my college religion classes, and not a lot of them got answered. I started to do some real research, not just reading websites that affirmed my beliefs.

Things began to crumble pretty quickly after that. I came across the websites whywontgodhealamputees.com and godisimaginary.com which offer such videos as "10 Questions Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer". I think the first time I watched that video is when things REALLY clicked for me. They had me down to a science: they asked a problematic question (why won't God heal amputees?), I tried to rationalize the problem (well, God must have a plan) and they pointed out the fact that I had to come up with rationalizations to make it all fit. This happened TEN TIMES. Then, at the end, they point out that if instead of making excuses, you imagine that there is no God... Suddenly there are no problems. It was like the proverbial light bulb came on over my head. It was the only rational answer: there was no God.

@GodsNotReal_ : How did your friends and family receive you when you became openly atheist?

Nancy: Actually, I am not yet openly atheist. There are a few reasons why but... Mostly, it's complicated. My number one reason is how much it would hurt my family. My parents have said it's their responsibility to get me to heaven and obviously as an atheist I'd surely go to hell if their god is the right one. It already keeps my mom up at night worrying that I don't go to church... I just can't bring myself to make her live in fear that her child is going to hell for eternity (how anyone can believe in a god that would punish their loved ones while they are chilling in heaven is beyond me but... that's a discussion for another time). My parents also sacrificed a lot to send us to Catholic school and I loathe to tell them it was all on vain. I do plan on eventually "coming out", and in fact I think having children eventually will probably force the issue. Before your readers rip into me for not being "out", I'd like to say I don't think I have any kind of moral obligation to do so and I think we all need to do what's best for ourselves in these situations. It is very difficult sometimes for non-believers to understand the depth and sincerity of belief but it can be a very sticky issue. For now, I contribute what I can online while remaining anonymous.

@GodsNotReal_ : Is it easy for you to discuss your atheism with everybody else besides your parents?

Nancy: At my last job I was surrounded by mostly under-30s like me, and while I was cautious and sort of tested the waters a bit at first - "I'm not really religious... I don't go to church... I was raised Catholic..." - it didn't seem to faze anyone. I haven't had much opportunity to speak to anyone in this job since I work from home. I can talk to my close atheist friends (I have 3 in real life) and husband about it with no problem, and obviously I am very vocal online. However pretty much my entire family are conservative Christians so I tend to bite my tongue a lot. Outside of all of that, I mean, when would I talk about it? I don't have a problem with people unless they're pushing their faith on me. So I'm not going to harass someone who's praying at a restaurant or a stranger who says "God bless you" if I sneeze. I just don't see the point.

@GodsNotReal_ :  When you admitted your atheism to yourself, what changed about your personality?

Nancy: I'm not sure anything changed about my personality. I actually still struggle with a lot of leftover bad Christian type of thinking and feeling that I am working on; for instance, getting rid of Catholic guilt, blushing madly at dirty jokes because of leftover prudishness, or that sort of wishing/begging the universe ("Please don't let that bitch I don't like be at this party, please, please, please!"). I know that there is no one listening, it's me wishing through my internal monologue. Isn't that what praying really is though?

I have always been a very feeling, compassionate person and that has not changed in the slightest. I say this because I'm sure many Christians would attribute that trait to Christianity, and many people I know would be shocked to find out I'm atheist, especially given my commitment to my faith in the past. But I feel like I'm the same person I've always been.

@GodsNotReal_ : One of the stalwarts of Catholicism is birth control and abortion.  How did you feel about those two things when you were a Catholic, and what do you think of them now?

Nancy: I pretty much ascribed to whatever the Catholic Church's teachings were up until I started questioning. I "Marched 4 Life" several times and was always arguing with my Catholic classmates about various doctrines. I believed you couldn't call yourself a Catholic if you disagreed with their doctrines. The only one I had a hard time with from day one was that you couldn't get divorced if you were being abused. Fuck. That. I wouldn't say I was following blindly... I knew the reasons why, but I no longer accept those rationalizations.

Sex ed and birth control go a long way to lowering abortion and teen pregnancy rates so they should really work on that if they actually want to stop abortions. Like most atheists/liberals, I'm pro-choice because no one should be forced to give up bodily autonomy and legal abortions are far safer than black market type abortions. I would like to see more people using adoption as an alternative, but that's my personal opinion. I wouldn't advocate the government to force women to carry to term.

@GodsNotReal_ :  A personal observation of mine (and possibly a stereotype of atheists), is that they are more "humanistic" than the non-religious--that is, atheists seem to care more about the suffering of humans and animals.  Again, this is a stereotype and not a scientific statement, but did you notice any changes in this regard after your deconversion?

Nancy: I believe I mentioned my compassionate nature in one of the previous questions... I honestly think I've just always been a humanist, except now I am a secular humanist! The things that always bothered me about religion were the ones that had to do with hurting or not doing enough to help humans - Catholicism's stance on homosexual relationships, the fact that you can't even get divorced if you were being abused, and that we had these big ornate churches while children were starving. So I believe my humanistic nature led to me being an atheist, not the other way around.

@GodsNotReal_ : Did you notice any changes in your scientific outlook after your deconversion?  Are you more skeptical of other scientific claims, and did you become more interested in biology and astronomy, for example, so as to learn the accurate, scientific, origins of life and our solar system?

Nancy: Okay so Catholicism is pretty wacky what with all the faux cannibalism added to the crazy I experienced with the Charismatic branch, but one thing I am grateful for is the fact that I was taught proper fucking science! Catholics pretty much accept evolution. The creation story and many other Old Testament stories are taught as just that - stories. They believed in intelligent design or God-guided evolution (eye roll) but nonetheless, they taught evolution as fact. As bizarre as my own beliefs were, I still thought fundies and young earth creationists were nuts. Everything else we were taught in science was mainstream, as well.

I have always loved astronomy. Biology, not so much, haha. But becoming an atheists really didn't change too much about my scientific outlook at all. Funnily enough, I have always been a skeptic. The only area of my life I wasn't skeptical toward was my faith, and even that I eventually put under the microscope. I used to drive my family crazy because I would respond to their stupid forwarded emails with snopes.com links showing that they were hoaxes. Looking back, I find it difficult to believe it took me so long to become an atheist. Indoctrination is no joke!

@GodsNotReal_ : What is your advice on how to raise a child when it comes to religion?  Should we tell them there is no god, or let them figure things out on their own?

Nancy: You know, I don't have any kids yet, so I have no freakin clue! I am not in any position to tell other people how to raise their kids, but there are some good books and blogs out there godlessmom.com and humanistmom.com about raising atheist or at least skeptical kids.

My best guess is that I'll raise them to be skeptical and smart, and hopefully they figure it out for themselves. I am admittedly very concerned as to if my family would try to indoctrinate my children behind my back. I would hope that they respect my beliefs, but very devout Christians are genuinely concerned for the well-being of their loved ones souls, and this may override any boundaries I'll try to establish. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

@GodsNotReal_ : When you believed in God, how did you feel about other religions?  Other people held strong beliefs contradictory to yours, so how did you balance that?

Nancy: I didn't think too much about other religions, unfortunately, until I became more skeptical of my own. When you're raised to believe something and literally everyone around you believes the same thing, it often doesn't even cross your mind that you could be wrong. You're taught that we have the TRUTH and that's that. But I don't think I even encountered anyone with differing beliefs until well after high school.

When I was questioning, a big part of my doubts was that there WERE so many other religions, and of course, they're almost always geographically and generationally defined.  I remember thinking, if every culture has a creation myth, could it be that our idea of how we got here be a myth also? So merely looking into various religions helped chip away at my beliefs.

@GodsNotReal_ : Upon losing faith, how did your politics change?  Did you become more democratic/liberal?

Nancy: I think was becoming more and more liberal without realizing it, but since I became atheist shortly after I turned voting age, it didn't cross my mind too much. I do remember it bothering me that my parents would vote Republican based on their prolife views while ignoring most other social issues. So I think, yes, I probably did become more democratic/liberal because those views lined up the most with mine.

@GodsNotReal_ : Is there a book, person, quote, or something else that gave you comfort after losing faith, since it can be a difficult and challenging time?

Nancy: I felt pretty alone when I was slowly deconverting. I didn't know of anyone else who was atheist or any resources to turn to, but at some point I added "atheist/agnostic" to my StumbleUpon categories and just seeing memes and articles that agreed with me helped a lot. Unfortunately I can't pinpoint them due to the randomness of the app. Later, Twitter became my outlet where I could find other people to have a sort of community with and express my doubts and feelings. When being surrounded by religion so much, escaping to talk to others who think similarly is a great relief.

I haven't read too many atheist books. I couldn't get through "The God Delusion", I think because I just didn't identify with Dawkins. I did thoroughly enjoy "Godless" by Dan Barker, likely because he was a pastor for 20 years and really captured the pain and heartbreak that  one sometimes goes through when we deconvert.

There are so many good resources out there. One of my favorite websites was godisimaginary.com which has 50 arguments against the existence of God as well as some great videos. I'm not much of a YouTube / podcast person but darkmatter2525 has some great videos as well.

There are tons of quotes that really speak to me but my all-time favorite is this: "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

There is a reason my blog is called Question With Boldness! This to me completely summed up how I felt about my atheism - if a good, loving God exists, he knows how hard I tried to be faithful and resist unbelief. But if he gave me this rational brain, he knows why I can't help but not believe, and would not hold me at fault. He knows I'm still a good person and I'd hope he would judge me on my actions.

@GodsNotReal_ : If you knew a questioning or skeptical believer who was having a hard time, what advice would you give them?  Would you personally prefer that skeptics and agnostics "come out fully" as atheists?

Nancy: As far as "coming out" I'd tell any atheist or agnostic that their safety is their number one priority - if they are young and live at home and think they'll be kicked out or dragged to Christian therapists or if they live in a country where atheism is straight up dangerous like the middle east etc, then just sit down and shut up til they are on their own and can be safe. It's not worth their lives or wellbeing. You can make anonymous accounts (like I did) to have an outlet if you need to but don't risk the roof over your head!

I would tell them to keep learning and researching. Read the Bible, read apologetics, read atheist and agnostic material. I'd tell them to reach out to others (contact me on Twitter!) and not to be afraid to doubt. Even if they go back to their religion, that's fine. But it's always good to learn and examine one's beliefs. And of course, to always question with boldness!

@GodsNotReal_ : What's the easiest and most difficult argument to debunk FOR the existence of God?

Nancy: Easiest for me to personally dismiss is any kind of design or "just look around you!" arguments. I mean look, most of the earth is hostile to humans. 99% of the universe is hostile to life. We have this huuuuge expansive universe, yet humans think it all revolves around them. It's absurd. It makes far more sense on naturalism than theism that the universe is the way it is. To think it was designed for us instead of the other way around - that we evolved to fit our environment - is to make the mistake of starting with the answer and working backward. I love this quote –

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, may have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. We all know that at some point in the future the Universe will come to an end and at some other point, considerably in advance from that but still not immediately pressing, the sun will explode. We feel there's plenty of time to worry about that, but on the other hand that's a very dangerous thing to say.” - Douglas Adams

Oh, honorable mention: Pascal's wager. The idea that we should believe just in case is so silly, as if God wouldn't know the difference. Plus, we atheists have as much chance of being wrong as theists do, if the deity in charge turns out to be anyone besides their own!

The most difficult argument for me to debunk while discussing with theists is probably some of their "God of the gaps" arguments such as "What about quantum mechanics? " or "Well how did we get here?" Not because I struggle with it personally, but because they will not accept that it's okay to not know. They think inserting "God did it" to anything they don't understand is a good answer, and it's not. I can say I don't believe them without having to provide my own answer, but it is very difficult to discuss this with believers. Additionally, I abhor discussing evolution with young earth creationists... Since I was raised Catholic, we were always taught evolution was correct. You don't have to be a scientist to accept evolution (just like you don't need to be a mechanic to drive a car or a physicist to accept that what goes up must come down) but people treat this lack of extensive education in evolution as proof of "faith". I go with the experts and it is very frustrating to try to educate others when I am not very studied in evolution myself. For these reasons, it is difficult to debunk these arguments to a theist, though I have no qualms with them personally.

@GodsNotReal_ : Since some believers always say that we atheists can't have morality since it originates from God, where does your morality come from?

Nancy: Morality is a topic that is still heavily discussed in many fields even among atheists. Only having my own experience to go on, I have to say my morality comes from empathy. I can feel in myself that I have no desire to hurt others... I want to live my life doing the least amount of harm I can and the most amount of good I can. Some will say that this is because God's law is written on our hearts... Which is confusing as a lot of these same people say humans are inherently wicked and prone to sin.